Micha-El shares his background growing up in suburban New York in a non-religious Jewish family, where institutional religion felt empty and unengaging. During his time at Cornell University in 1969, amid political and social upheaval, he experienced an existential crisis. Feeling disillusioned with both activism and academic structures, he was directed to the American Brahmin Bookstore in Ithaca, associated with Anthony Damiani. There he encountered a comparative study of spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, and Western mystical thought, all presented in a unified way.

Through Damiani, Micha-El eventually encountered Paul Brunton and later met him personally several times in Switzerland and the United States. Brunton is described as someone who studied and synthesized many traditions and teachers, producing a body of work that includes A Search in Secret India and later The Notebooks of Paul Brunton, a large compilation of teachings organized into thematic categories.

Micha-El emphasizes Brunton’s approach as both experiential and investigative. Brunton did not present himself as a guru but as a researcher of consciousness. His work draws from direct encounters with teachers, texts, and his own inner experience. He was also interested in integrating scientific inquiry with mystical insight, emphasizing a “scientific attitude” toward spiritual experience.

A central teaching discussed is Brunton’s idea of “the quest,” which includes four aims: knowing the self, knowing the higher self (or Overself), knowing the universe, and understanding one’s relation to the universe. This framework combines inner realization with understanding of the external world, including modern science, rather than rejecting it.

The conversation also covers Brunton’s distinctions between different levels of realization, including temporary “glimpses,” personal illumination, and what he called cosmic illumination. Micha-El explains that glimpses are often the initial experiences that draw people into spiritual seeking, but they are not the final stage.

Meditation is described as a movement beyond thought into a deeper inner emptiness where thoughts cease. In this state, Brunton suggests, communication can occur at a subtler level than language or intellect. Henry connects this to contemplative practices in Sufism and Christianity, while Mikael relates it to similar ideas in Buddhism and Vedanta.

A significant theme is the role of teachers. Brunton acknowledged that qualified teachers are rare but valuable, yet he did not require students to depend on one. Instead, he emphasized what he called an independent path, where individuals rely on inner guidance and serious study. Books, in this sense, can function as direct transmissions when deeply engaged.

The discussion also addresses Brunton’s skepticism toward spiritual organizations. He observed that many become entangled in ego, power, and institutional issues. While organizations may preserve teachings, he did not see them as essential for spiritual realization.

Both Henry and Micha-El reflect on the difficulty of discerning authentic teachers, noting that seekers must rely on experience, patience, and discernment rather than idealized expectations. They also discuss Brunton’s broader view of human development, moving from materialism to religion, then mysticism, and finally philosophy as a synthesis of intuition and intellect.

The episode closes with reflections on Brunton’s vision of a decentralized spiritual transmission: individuals working inwardly, often in isolation, yet forming a subtle collective of understanding through shared inquiry and practice.

Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity.

The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness.

Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body.

Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency

The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional

A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty

The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes

Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe

Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force.

The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience.

Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice.

The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

Part 1 Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation.

Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void.

Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience.

Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected.

Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question.

The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists.

Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes.

Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude.

Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

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Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace.

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Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross-cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

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Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.  

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Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.d

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish then introduces himself and segways into the realities of his experiences growing up in Gaza, the Jabalia Camp, what he has seen and witnessed, the loss of his three daugthers and niece in 2009 from an Israeli tank shell (i.e., I Shall Not Hate) and his pride in his Palestinan heritage, family, and community.

He shares his deep belief and conviction 'nothing is impossible in life.' He also expresses:

• Medicine as a great human equalizer
• Toward human rights, once people step away from the border of the hospitals, they become categorized and labeled 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli'
• If you believe in Humanity, we must all stand for all
• Human Rights is deeply tested in Gaza, people must stand up for human rights
• Advocate not for peace but for dignity, justice, freedom, and human rights for all: peace will follow when these conditions are cultivated 

Naomi shares her family history and the experiences of relocating after the Nakba. Naomi also shares:

• As a poet, every voice is important in the world, every voice represents humanity. 
• Regarding Gaza, this is an overwhelming tragedy of sorrow
• The importance of actions based on one's convictions
• The power of the military industry complex to overide the voice of the majority and humanity's collective voice
• How can we be heard, how can we be listened to?
• Who is listening?

The idea, our obligation is to our humanity, looking within our selves we recognize our humanity

Dr Abuelaish shares his experiences as an author. 

The priority of Palestinians toward education.

Human Rights, respect and dignity for all. 

What is our modern sense of responsibility and obligation toward our fellow humans, what is our modern sense of meaning, mission, and purpose.

A human being is a human being [only] through another person.

Truth telling as means of healing.  

The situation is Gaza and West Bank harms Israel deeply as well. 

Naomi shares Hibu Abu Nabab's poem, Not Just Passing.

The political power and politics contrbuting to the crisis in Gaza and the West Bank.

Dr. Abuelaish reviews the history of Gaza since 2000.

And, Naomi closes with her poem, For Gaza

The children are still singing

They need & want to sing

They are carrying cats to safe places

Holding what they can hold

Red hair brown hair yellow

They will wear the sweater

Someone threw away

They will hope for something tasty

You won't be able to own them

Their spirits fly to safer worlds

They planted seashells in the sand

They never committed a crime

A president pardons turkeys

He pardons his own son

He doesn't pardon children

The children are still singing.

Naomi Shihab Nye was born in St. Louis, Missouri. Her father was a Palestinian refugee and her mother an American of German and Swiss descent, and Nye spent her adolescence in both Jerusalem and San Antonio, Texas. She earned her BA from Trinity University in San Antonio. Nye is the recipient of numerous honors and awards for her work, including the Ivan Sandrof Award for Lifetime Achievement from the National Book Critics Circle, the Lavan Award, the Paterson Poetry Prize, the Carity Randall Prize, the Isabella Gardner Poetry Award, the Lee Bennett Hopkins Poetry award, the Robert Creeley Prize, and many Pushcart Prizes. She has received fellowships from the Lannan Foundation, the Guggenheim Foundation, and she was a Witter Bynner Fellow. From 2010 to 2015 she served as a Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets. In 2018 she was awarded the Lon Tinkle Award for Lifetime Achievement from the Texas Institute of Letters. Nye was the Poetry Foundation's Young People's Poet Laureate from 2019-2022.

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, MD, MPH, is a Palestinian medical doctor who was born and raised in Jabalia Refugee Camp in the Gaza Strip. He is a passionate and eloquent proponent of peace between Palestinians and Israelis and has dedicated his life to using health as a vehicle for peace. He has succeeded despite all odds through a great determination of spirit, a strong faith, and a stalwart belief in hope and family. He has received a number of awards and nominations in recognition of his promotion of peace through health, and has been given seven honorary degrees. He has been nominated three years consecutively for the Nobel Peace Prize, and support for his candidacy keeps growing exponentially every year. He is the recipient of the Stavros Niarchos Prize for Survivorship, and was also nominated for the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. Since 2010 Dr. Abuelaish has also been named one of the 500 Most Influential Muslims by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Centre in Amman, Jordan for three consecutive years, and was the first ever recipient of the Mahatma Gandhi Peace Prize. Dr. Abuelaish’s book, I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor’s Journey, an autobiography inspired by the loss of his three daughters Bessan, Mayar, and Aya and his niece Noor to Israeli shelling on January 16, 2009, has achieved critical acclaim. Published in 2010, it has become an international best-seller and has been translated into 23 languages. The book has become a testament to his commitment to forgiveness as the solution to conflict, and the catalyst towards peace.

Naomi Shihab Nye's poem Current Affairs

I don't want to be

one of those modern people

who reads about Gazans

being crushed wholesale

entire blocks

extended families

invisible kitchens

then continues scrolling.

We will not delete you.

We would give you

anything we have.

Your pain is not money.

Feel us from a far place.

Howling in darkness.

What are you supposed to?

No one should have to bear.

I love you so much I can smell

the garlic in your shirt,

the dirt on your shoes,

the smoke in your air.

• 'What makes us come alive?'
• 'What is your 'note' in life?' (Rumi's 'be your note.')

Discussion turns to Rumi's quote 'when I was young I wanted to change the world, when I grew older I wanted only to change myself.'

How do we attune to spiritual teachers? 

How do we know who our spiritual teachers are meant to be?

Moments that open and we lose sense of time, time falls away:

• Activity 
• When meeting new people, old karmic connections? 
• In our Dharma, our work
• Henry's discussions, Sohbet, mystical discussions on mystical subjects, with his teacher.
• How do we find what makes us home in the world?
• How do we cultivate spiritual discernment in Life?
• The World as ourself
• Is there preparation to receive 'flow' states?

The Panel also explores:

• Where does the spiritual path begin? 
• What are the implications of having a guide or spiritual teacher?
• Teachers seeing into their students
• Tears as an indicator of one's spiritual path
• Sufism as a path of 'heart'
• Karma of helping others as way of being helped

The importance of 'others before self.'

We end with two poems from Ikkyu:

Raincoat and Straw Hat

Woodcutters and fishermen know just how to use things. What would they do with fancy chairs and meditation platforms? In straw sandals and with a bamboo staff, I roam three thousand worlds, Dwelling by the water, feasting on the wind, year after year.

I Hate The Smell of Incense A master's handiwork cannot be measured But still priests wag their tongues explaining the 'Way' and babbling about 'Zen.' This old monk has never cared for false piety And my nose wrinkles at the dark smell of incense before the Buddha.

The poet Major Ragain is quoted, 'contemplation alters the course of rivers.'

From the Bhagavad Gita:

• Freedom from action is not accomplished by abstaining from action, so how is it accomplished?
• Relinquishing the fruit of action 

Ghandi's, 'through service, I find myself.'

The Panel begins to examine the Taoist concept of non-action, Wu Wei.

How do we cultivate Wu Wei?

The Panel explores Univerisal Truths.

• Natural action arises, we have a deep intrinsic calling, how do we find and express it?
• What is our reason for being here?
• To receive the Divine Will is a part of choiceless action.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

Brian Mistler is a Missouri-hillbilly curious about Reality. He has lived as a computer scientist, psychologist, running and growing  businesses, and helping entrepreneurs, hospitals, and healthcare providers. Mid-life Brian had a partially debilitating nerve injury and soon after met a true Vedanta teacher who spent 30+ years in India and trained under Swami Chimayananda, Sawmi Dayananda, and others. This refocused his study of the classic non-dual wisdom as presented in the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Learn more at http://www.stillcenter.media. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. 

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Does God Exist? How does meditation reveal God? What is the nature of evil? Where does God exist? Can we experience God directly? Why are we here on earth? What is the purpose of life? Why does God ask us to struggle? Does morality matter? Is there life after death? What is a koan?

Next Steps Forward is a podcast hosted by Chris Meek, the Mission Statement of the podcast:

Personal empowerment, commitment to our own well-being and the motivation to achieve more than we ever thought possible are the ingredients of a better life. And, they’re all within our reach. Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek delves into each aspect of the three keys that add energy, excitement, direction and purpose to everything that we do. Each week, Chris hosts leaders from the worlds of business, sports, entertainment, medicine, politics and public policy as they engage in thought-provoking discussions to help us all take the next step forward on our own journeys to our better selves and greater service to others.

Biography

Co-founder, Chairman, and CEO of SoldierStrong, Chris Meek has been recognized for his philanthropy with the President’s Call to Service Award, March of Dimes Franklin Delano Roosevelt Outstanding Corporate Citizen Award, Syracuse University’s Orange Circle Award, the ACT-IAC “Game Changer” Award, and was named a “Face of Philanthropy” by the Chronicle of Philanthropy. He discusses resiliency, empowerment, and leadership through adversity on his weekly podcast, “Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek,” via VoiceAmerica network’s Empowerment Channel. Next Steps Forward is his first book.

Joel David Lesses founded the Education Training Center as a means of counseling those marginalized by trauma, addiction and psychological distress, and its effects including incarceration, homelessness and institutionalization. He is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker. Joel has lived in Nepal and Israel and is also a poet expressing the landscape of the mystical elements of our human beings. He believes world religion, poetry, spirituality, and meditation encompass the most vital aspects of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the questions and answers to his own koan or inquiry: “what is the matter with me?” revealing the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux, everything is poetry. His other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, with the transformative power of self-inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices. Joel holds the belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly asking the questions, “Who am I?” or “What am I” or “What is the matter with me?” The latter being a question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Bio of Lisa Carley

Hosting the podcast, 'The Labyrinth,' Lisa Carley is passionate about India, existential and phenomenological philosophy/psychology, and maternal mental health. She chooses to explore her passion through travel, connection with others, and writing. She holds a degree in English Literature from SUNY Albany, and has worked toward a Psy. D. in Clinical Psychology with a Masters in Existential Humanistic Psychology from Saybrook, is a mother, student of Philosophy and English, artisan, and poet.